Putting each others' eyes out in the dark

[taste_is_sweet]

Hello, my lovelies. I'm off to CANADA next week for March break! It's a total Whoo-Hoo! for me, of course, but it means I most likely won't be posting. I can hear you crying already.

But before I go, I wanted to write about something interesting I saw in a TV show last night. And by 'interesting', I of course mean 'jaw-droppingly out-of-character and violent.' I won't name the show because I don't want to spoil anyone, and also because I'm not even sure the particular show matters. Here are the particulars:

1) Character A is very, very badly hurt by Reoccurring Bad Person
2) Reoccurring Bad Person is captured
3) Character B beats captured RBP to within an inch of xir life in retaliation
4) Character C refuses to turn RBP over to The Authorities, apparently only so C can threaten RBP with the 'If xie dies, you die' trope.
5) All of this is supposed to be a) perfectly acceptable, and b) to show how awesome characters B and C are.

Now, because TV Tropes is my new internet boyfriend, after I had my few moments of O.o and assorted exclamations along the lines of, are they really keeping that bad guy just for the if/then murdering? and, If Character A bites the oatmeal, how will killing RBG bring xir back?, I went to the TV Tropes site to see if the "If X dies; you die" trope had an article.

I couldn't find one, alas. But I did find Knight Templar Big Brother/Parent. It's not quite as specific as I hoped for, but it's close enough.

The Knight Templar Big Brother/Parent basically refers to going apeshit on anyone who hurt your sib/kid, and I think the trope fits even if the characters aren't related. Like beating the snot out of the Reoccurring Bad Person who hurt your buddy, for example.

"I'm not going to hurt you now. But I will probably kill you later, depending."

Okay, sure. Makes sense. I'd be pretty peeved too, if my adorable protege of adorableness was gutted like a prize-winning salmon. And the Character B who did the beat-down is, shall we say, not entirely unknown for such things. But, Character C is definitely not known for the apeshit beat-downs. In fact, C tells B to back off on the curb-kicking, which is somewhat odd considering Character C's intention in doing so is, apparently, to keep RBP alive in order to chuck xir out an airlock if Character A kaks it.

That's not very nice.

It's also not very moral, and considering Characters A, B, and C are all very much supposed to be the GOOD GUYS, the idea of Character C especially refusing to give up RBP while calmly anticipating spacing xir in the near future is not what I signed on for when I started watching the show. I mean, this is basic cable--I like to know which end of the spectrum my heroes are supposed to belong to. And murder for revenge is a little too far in the red for me.

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind, as they say, and killing someone because they killed someone is way more Judge Dredd than My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic, if you know what I mean. Not that I'm talking about either Judge Dredd or MLP:FIM (though I'm sure Rainbow Dash would go apeshit if Discord killed Fluttershy). But you get the point.

Which is, I want my heroes to be, well, heroic, thank you very much. That doesn't just mean being badass, it means knowing when not to be as well. And sure, fallibility and conflict and drama and all that. But honestly, this show offers plenty of that anyway. If I wanted antiheroes, dark themes and gratuitous violence I'd watch The Walking Dead, which I don't. Because I don't really like antiheroes, dark themes or gratuitous violence. What's the point of escapism if you can't go anywhere?

I might as well watch the news, except for how it's way more depressing.

Picture is from The DVD cover for this Knights Templar movie, available from Amazon.co.uk. Coincidentally, it has Norman Reedus in it. Unfortunately the film seems to be very, very bad.

Comments

[ride-4ever.livejournal.com]

I am smitten with the passion and details of this post!

And Canada -- oh Canada! Details about that?

[taste-is-sweet.livejournal.com]

Thank you! :D I always aim for smit, whenever possible.

I love your icon. :D

I had a wonderful time in Canada! I took the kid and went to Toronto the Awesome to visit my sister and her family. Much fun was had by all and various hijinks ensued. Unfortunately my husband had to stay here and do Important Engineering Things, but then again he didn't have to walk for an hour through a small snowstorm.

But still, awesome. <3 Canada forever!

[sgamadison.livejournal.com]

Not to mention that other people were killed in the process of saving character A and there ARE NO RAMIFICATIONS. AND people are starting to say things like this show is finally hitting its stride.

WUT? How is *deliberately* killing two other members of your organization, albeit part of a secret branch of it, in order to save character A justified?

I have to say, I am sick of these 'special groups above the law' type scenarios in television as it is. I don't like ruthlessness dressed up as 'I'd do anything for the team.' One of the things that draws me to Team shows is the aspiration to be part of said team, to be good/smart/talented enough to be a member. That's the appeal.

I *want* my heroes to be tested and come out better than me. That's why they are *heroes*.

[taste-is-sweet.livejournal.com]

Amen to that, sister. Though I have to admit that I'm so used to bloodshed in all the shows I like at this point that the fact that two guys were offed in the process didn't even register (at least their deaths were mentioned twice in the subsequent ep; I suppose that's something?).

But yes, yes, yes. I completely agree with you. Last ep also made me boil with rage for reasons that had nothing to do with the murky morality of the ep I posted about. At this rate I'm going to hope it's not renewed.

[sgamadison.livejournal.com]

Whereas FOX will probably not renew Almost Human (which is at least honest about the flaws of the characters and the society), thus making the same mistake they did with Firefly all over again...

[taste-is-sweet.livejournal.com]

I have my own problems with Almost Human, but I definitely would watch it again. But yeah, Fox will probably deep-six it like they always do. Alas.

[sgamadison.livejournal.com]

Oh yes, Almost Human definitely has its flaws, not the least of which is how poorly they use women in the show. But it doesn't pretend to be one kind of show and then morph into another. I told the BF last night I really didn't care if I ever watched another ep of Heroes who are really Thugs In Disguise again. Which saddens me because there's not much else on I do what to watch, and I like the franchise in general.

[taste-is-sweet.livejournal.com]

But it doesn't pretend to be one kind of show and then morph into another.

Nicely put. :)

Much as I hate to say it, being a devout Marvel fan, Arrow is a far better show. It's violent, and the heroes have killed people, but they never started as something other than morally ambiguous (and very self-aware of it), and Oliver Queen (Arrow, the main character) has actually suffered in the show for his choices, and now almost never uses lethal force.

I dunno, you might like it?

[sgamadison.livejournal.com]

I do watch Arrow, but like with almost every other show, I'm at least a year behind everyone else. ;-) I have to be in the right mood for it, for one thing. I like it for all the reasons you name, only one of my friends recently told me the last couple of eps have taken a much darker turn--in fact, we've been having a conversation about how sick and tired we are of all these dystopian, post-apocalyptic shows on television right now. Same with most movies (especially if they're based on YA books). The BF's daughter *loves* this sort of dystopian storyline, especially if there is no magical power involved, just a plucky girl against the world. I suspect I might have enjoyed it when I was that age too, but after having fought the battle for so many years, I've discovered a) the world is indifferent to your efforts and b)no one wins.

I don't need to be reminded of that when I seek entertainment. ;-)

[taste-is-sweet.livejournal.com]

Ouch. I'm sorry, hon. I hear you, for sure. Which is why I almost never watch any Oscar nominated movies not in the animation or special-effects categories (I don't want sad movies! I want fun movies!).

I don't want to lead you wrong about Arrow, but I didn't find it any darker than, well, any other darkish show these days. There is a lot of Bad Stuff happening, but Oliver himself actually goes for the moral high ground and (mostly) sticks the landing. I also find the plots deliciously complicated and the show basically a lot more fun than SHIELD, unfortunately, Marvel Girl that I am. :)

[sgamadison.livejournal.com]

No, I'm not delusional about Arrow. Most DC Comics-turned-into-shows/movies tend to be dark on the whole. I went into it with my eyes open. But that's just it--I knew what I was getting. SHIELD has disappointed me, to say the least. :-(

[taste-is-sweet.livejournal.com]

Yeah. ::sighs:: Can't argue that.

[pyewacketsid.livejournal.com]

I don't know which show you're talking about, but it sounds Whedon-esque. Do I get an internet point? I can see him making Character C surprise!dark to show Unplumbed Depth or somesuch.

[taste-is-sweet.livejournal.com]

I don't think Surprise!Dark was the intent, but otherwise you win the internets. Whedon-esque pretty much covers it exactly.

[draycevixen.livejournal.com]

I like my heroes flawed, I have to admit and the type of "hero" I'm drawn to is definitely capable of heat of the moment revenge but no, I can't imagine them holding on to the RBP just in case they want to execute him/her later. Nope.

[taste-is-sweet.livejournal.com]

I really don't mind antiheroes, and especially not flawed heroes, but I prefer to know that's what I'm getting going in, eh?

And yeah, the holding on to RBP for possible execution just didn't make any sense. Did they really think it would make them feel better, or something? I really couldn't get it.

[brumeier.livejournal.com]

I admit I'm torn here. I don't want my hero turning suddenly bloodthirsty and murderous, though I fully support acting that way to get the RBP to stay in line.

I'd like to think my heroes would go to lengths for their compatriots but yeah, there has to be a line they can't cross.

I automatically think of H50, and how Steve and Danny take turns going overboard with some suspects but the other one is always there to make sure they don't go too far.

[taste-is-sweet.livejournal.com]

In this case, imagine a H50 ep where Danny is calmly discussing tossing the perp off a building if Chin Ho Kelly doesn't make it, and Steve isn't just agreeing, he's facilitating it. And neither of them are pretending. It was like that.

Very disturbing, and not in a good way. Not my show at all.

[blythechild.livejournal.com]

Hmmmm. I like anti heroes, dark themes and violence so I'm probably not your best audience for this conundrum. Part of the reason why traditional heroes don't interest me is because their actions are morally predictable, which means that any semi-educated Bad Guy can rout their plans. My main problem with the scenario that you outlined above is that Character C's actions are illogical and riddled with opportunities for RBP to escape. It's like when the bad guy in those old James Bond movies explains his dastardly plan IN DETAIL to someone he's trying to kill instead of, say, killing him which would prevent him from losing his gambit in the first place while James frees himself with some stupid gadget that Q branch cooked up with while smoking weed.

But I can see how this could be vexing to your hero expectations.

Straight up heroes aren't really en vogue these days... Perhaps your show is trying to make its characters more edgy???

[taste-is-sweet.livejournal.com]

I agree with you that morally predictable heroes can make it easy for the bad guys, but I personally don't think that it means they automatically will. Like, okay, Captain America would most likely run into traffic to save a kitten, but he'd never get run over by the 18-wheeler, you know?

But C's actions here were really, really illogical. Even though RBP wasn't able to escape, he/she could have actually given useful information if he'd been turned over to the appropriate higher-ups, as opposed to potentially becoming a completely useless smear of chunky salsa.

I love the 'explain the dastardly plan in detail' school of villainy, especially in James Bond. Of course, if the bad guy just killed him, the movies would be at least a half-hour too short...

[blythechild.livejournal.com]

*chuckles* Cap would totally run into traffic for a kitten...

[taste-is-sweet.livejournal.com]

:D He so would!

[lavvyan.livejournal.com]

I'm about one step away from giving up on that show. It's a lot darker than I'd expected. Yet the characters are such stereotypes (oh, B, why are they wasting you so?) that I'm still struggling to like them after more than a dozen episodes. Will-A-Live-Or-Not consequently left me entirely unmoved; also I'm expecthing that character to turn out to be specialer than special and that trope is so overdone.

I'm not even gonna get started on C. And the good guys being the good guys? Questionabler and questionabler.

Which, I suppose, is one thing to take away from the show: the good guys aren't necessarily better than the bad guys. Considering the show runners, that message is also a bit overdone.

[taste-is-sweet.livejournal.com]

I hear you, big time. And boy, I expect you hated last week's episode. I sure as hell did.

I want my good guys to be better than the bad guys, damn it. Otherwise, why bother even making the difference? I have to say I did like them, but it's getting harder to like the show in general. And yes, B should get way more to do. At least there was ass-kicking last ep.

And yes, I'm sure A will be revealed to be the Special Snowflake to End All Special Snowflakes by the end of the season. Can't wait. :/

[reedfem.livejournal.com]

So Canadians go toward the snow for spring break?

Good to know. ;)

[taste-is-sweet.livejournal.com]

We're like geese! :D